Robert Gendler said: “The answer is complex but I believe the main reason is that we lack depth at the highest level. We have plenty of high school wrestlers (a good thing for sure) but at the highest level we just don't have the numbers of elite athletes to push each other. The old cliche "steel sharpens steel" is so true. Look at our most successful wrestlers and you will find that they had some serious competition in their weight classes to sharpen their technique on the way to becoming world or olympic champs. Cejudo had to beat Abas (olympic silver medal), Smith had to beat Lewis (olympic gold), Schultz had to beat Kemp (3 time world champ), Monday had to beat Schultz (world and olympic champ). By wrestling great opponents here in the USA they were then ready for international competition. To make matters worse the dominant wrestling countries in the world have even more depth now at the highest level these days with the break up of the USSR. Our best wrestlers either burn themselves out in College or have little financial incentive to continue internationally once they're done. Public backing of the sport is just so poor in the USA that its amazing we've done as well as we have so far.”
TJ X said: “ I have one question folks, what the hell happened to wrestling in this country? ”
The answer is complex but I believe the main reason is that we lack depth at the highest level. We have plenty of high school wrestlers (a good thing for sure) but at the highest level we just don't have the numbers of elite athletes to push each other. The old cliche "steel sharpens steel" is so true. Look at our most successful wrestlers and you will find that they had some serious competition in their weight classes to sharpen their technique on the way to becoming world or olympic champs. Cejudo had to beat Abas (olympic silver medal), Smith had to beat Lewis (olympic gold), Schultz had to beat Kemp (3 time world champ), Monday had to beat Schultz (world and olympic champ). By wrestling great opponents here in the USA they were then ready for international competition. To make matters worse the dominant wrestling countries in the world have even more depth now at the highest level these days with the break up of the USSR. Our best wrestlers either burn themselves out in College or have little financial incentive to continue internationally once they're done. Public backing of the sport is just so poor in the USA that its amazing we've done as well as we have so far.
Moo Bird said: “i agree. i hate freestyle way too subjective and leaves too much room for argumentation.
folk style like american style football is philsophically American. They are both sports which allow for greater self determination. steady incremental gain towards a obtainable goals. All within the confines of clearly delineated rules of engagement. the same philosophy by which America has enabled it self to rule the world.
Perhaps it is this philisophical difference which prevents us from dominating the international freestyle scene?!”
Re: "...the same philosophy by which America has enabled it self to rule the world."
Yes, I would agree, and also dropping atomic bombs on Japan, burning Germany to the ground, and amassing the largest arsenal of thermonuclear weapons to date also helps that old philosophical idealogy of ruling the planet too.
what a said: “joke. looked like kemp had more points and attacked more. took more shots. ty sport”
i agree. i hate freestyle way too subjective and leaves too much room for argumentation.
folk style like american style football is philsophically American. They are both sports which allow for greater self determination. steady incremental gain towards a obtainable goals. All within the confines of clearly delineated rules of engagement. the same philosophy by which America has enabled it self to rule the world.
Perhaps it is this philisophical difference which prevents us from dominating the international freestyle scene?!
Not to disparage Dave Schultz, but didn't he have a problem with a banned substance during his wrestling career? I always thought Kemp was too defensive of a wrestler - but he did a lot of attacking in this match. I saw him lose to Cascaret in a match where he seemed content to counter - then lost by a score of 2-1 or something like that.
Kemp gave up early turns, but was the superior wrestling the score did not reflect that, great match from Schultz, knew how to counter attack, great defense.
I just came from themat.com and watched Paulson/Schlatter. I have one question folks, what the hell happened to wrestling in this country? Their leg attemps are so half hearted it is sickening. Rule changes or no rule changes, these guys don't wrestle anymore compared to what we watch week in and week out on this forum thanks to The Guru's generosity.
scroobius said: “On going to the knees: Just wanted to say I went straight from this video to Smith v. Jordan, and Smith does most of his scoring off his knees.
But that's John Smith.”
I love John Smith but he had an extremely unique style that worked only for him. He was lanky and extremely flexible. He had great position even on his knees off a single leg because of his very broad base. His butt would be on the matt with knees far apart and no one could turn him from that position. He could then take his sweet time and finish with one of his patented finishes.
That won't work for the rest of us. For the rest of us staying on your knees is a recipe for losing.
This is prized footage showcasing two of my favourite wrestlers. Kemp penetrated well and Schultz defended well. I thought Schultz the better positional wrestler and Kemp an extraordinary physical specimen. I am hoping we come up with a generation of great international wrestlers, but we aren’t at the point where we have a Kemp, a Schultz, or a John Smith competing. We do have Cejudo if he stays in the sport and we are lucky to have someone at that level. Schlatter is a great wrestler and has just taken a redshirt year. I would like to see him take off after his redshirt year like Smith took off after his redshirt year. We have some guys who might reach top level in the world at some point: , but without the financial support once they finish their undergraduate career they usually go to work. When I worked in the former Soviet republics, (Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Uzbekistan) their wrestling fans ask me how much our guys get for world and Olympic medals. When I say they don’t get a pension, cars, or apartments the first reaction is disbelief and the second is always the question: "Why would they do it without making money for all that work?" The promise of a photo on a Wheaties box or one of the underpaid D1 wrestling coaching slots only carry an aspirant so far through poverty and pain to reach international wrestling success.
Jake Herbert should watch this match. It drives me crazy how he shoots to his knees all the time. You gotta think that won't work against the best in the world... or is he just that good?
We'll soon see how good Schlatter is. So far he has been beating (and losing to) other American wrestlers. When he wrestles against the world we'll be able to make a more accurate assessment.
Robert Gendler said: “Great match. Even at this high level this match reinforced one of the fundamental concepts I've learned....that staying on your knees will not allow you to finish a takedown against the best. Each time Kemp shot and failed to come off his knees he was countered effectively by Schultz. Whenever he immediately came off his knees and lifted or came around he was able to finish. This applies at all levels of wrestling but was clearly evident here.”
Great match. Even at this high level this match reinforced one of the fundamental concepts I've learned....that staying on your knees will not allow you to finish a takedown against the best. Each time Kemp shot and failed to come off his knees he was countered effectively by Schultz. Whenever he immediately came off his knees and lifted or came around he was able to finish. This applies at all levels of wrestling but was clearly evident here.
TJX, I think you underestimate how good Schlatter is. Am I saying he's as good right now or even at the same age as Kemp or Schultz? No, but those guys are two of our best wrestlers EVER. How about comparing Schlatter to a guy from that era who didn't win a world title since he hasn't even competed yet? And is that even a fair comparison? The break up of the Soviet Union has made a world championship much harder to come by. Azerbaijan beat Russia at the European championships, Georgia won the worlds a few years ago. It's just more difficult.
I've attended the high school Beast of the East tournament for the past 10 years and I still say Dustin Schlatter was the best wrestler to come through that tournament since I've been watching it. I said it when he graduated and he proved me right when he won the NCAA as a freshman. I think he's better than you give him credit for. He was injured for a couple of years and seems be back to top form. Just because you may not have liked his WTT performance doesn't mean the kid can't wrestle. Comparing him to 2 all time greats isn't exactly fair at this point.
Craig Vitagliano said: “Iowa City was the Final Olympic Qualifier which was used to determine the rankings (ladder) for the Final Trials at Grand Valley State.”
no sense said: “of couse their better right now. schlatter is still young in international wrestling. these guys are among the best wrestlers in american history. u can't compare them to schlatter right now”
I figured I would get a response like this but it doesn't matter how old or young or inexperienced Schlatter is, the fact of the matter which cannot be argued is that he is going to represent the United States at the 2009 World Championships as he was declared the winner of the World Team Trials last month, period. Nobody from the Soviet bloc countries or Iran or Ukarine care whether he is young or inexperienced. And if a young and inexperienced wrestler such as Schlatter is representing us, then maybe there is something ominous about that in itself. If you are already chalking him up that he cannot even compare to Schultz or Kemp (or Monday or Smith, i.e. World Medal material) then you are in essence saying we have little to no chance to claim a World medal at 163.5. That makes me ill...ILL I SAY!
John Smith became a World Champion at roughly the same age as Schlatter. Smith had to win a rugged World Team trial to make the team and then went on to win a World Title. The fact is Dave Schultz and Lee Kemp, although far more experienced than Schlatter on the international scene, were also far better than our current representative and that is not a good sign for us as a nation. I thought the wrestlers today were supposedly far better than those in years past, with all the youth craze going on, starting kids at 3 years old, psychotic parents, high school holdbacks, kids logging thousands of matches before getting to college, technology and knowledge, off season training, and all that other nonsense. The fact is the wrestlers of yester-year by and large were superior than the wrestlers today for some which I do not fully understand although I believe lack of fundamentals and basics are not taight or practiced enough these days. Got off on a tangent but this is what came to mind today watching these phenoms going at it.
of couse their better right now. schlatter is still young in international wrestling. these guys are among the best wrestlers in american history. u can't compare them to schlatter right now
Another outstanding match! Man those guys were spent at the end. Gable Ultra Flex...just attended a clinic with Chris Campbell (Bronze Medalist) and he was rocking a pair in red. Same knee pads from the 70s too! Awesome seeing this match as both were just rock solid in everything. Especially the basics. Don't care how many slick moves a guy knows, the basics will do it every time.
How much more fundamentally sound and for gosh sakes, just plain BETTER, do these guys look than our current World Team representative Dustin Schlatter?
jmgoblue said: “This Video says "1984 Olympic Trials at Grand Valley State." I thought the 1984 Olympic Trials were in Iowa City? Anyone know the specifics of the events at Grand Valley State and Iowa City in 1984? Thanks.”
Iowa City was the Final Olympic Qualifier which was used to determine the rankings (ladder) for the Final Trials at Grand Valley State.
This Video says "1984 Olympic Trials at Grand Valley State." I thought the 1984 Olympic Trials were in Iowa City? Anyone know the specifics of the events at Grand Valley State and Iowa City in 1984? Thanks.
Ive been looking for this match forever! WOW Mother may i have another lol please post more of kemp and schultz even MARK. got any of mark as a gymnist? Fadzaev
arm-spin said: “Very good match! Too bad one of those two had to lose.
I'm always a bit suprised Dave Schults was "only" a 2x world/olympic champ, given his incredible technique and his victories at Tblisi. Did he just have bad luck or was there someone a little bit better competinng at the worlds those same years?”
He got screwed against Cascaret in the 1985 finals and I think he got screwed against him again in 1986 prelims or had a brain fart and gave up a takedown with only seconds left. I don't remember exactly. Gotta watch the films. In 1987 he lost to Varaev in OT in the World finals. So he could have been a 4 time world champ, but it didn't work out.
74 kg was probably (and still is) the toughest weight in the world. Understand that until 1987 the Soviets hadn't won a gold in that weight for like 12 years (1975). It was won by Americans, Cubans, Iran, Bulgaria, West Germany, and Japan.
Cliff Fretwell said: “Two great wrestlers 2 horrible hair do's. Is Kemp wearing signature Schultz shoes here? Schultz should have been hit for passivity 7 min mark Kemp took 4 -5 shots and they got stale matted.
Great Par Terre scrambles early!”
Ha Cliff they weren't Dave Schultz sigs then. Back then they were just called Ultra-Flex (maybe Dan Gable Ultra-Flex) and I still have 2 pairs and they just don't fall apart.
For 1984, what an amazing physique Leroy Kemp has, the pride of Chardon, Ohio! This was a time when offseason weightlifting programs were not well developed. Beautiful single leg attacks too by Kemp and I must admit, Dave Schultz should have been called for passivity on at least one, if not more than one, occasion as Kemp was really forcing the action throughout. These matches are like gold as I learn so much from them.
Very good match! Too bad one of those two had to lose.
I'm always a bit suprised Dave Schults was "only" a 2x world/olympic champ, given his incredible technique and his victories at Tblisi. Did he just have bad luck or was there someone a little bit better competinng at the worlds those same years?
Two great wrestlers 2 horrible hair do's. Is Kemp wearing signature Schultz shoes here? Schultz should have been hit for passivity 7 min mark Kemp took 4 -5 shots and they got stale matted.
Another gem from the guru! As you stated with Segei Beloglazov, the old rules (70's/80's) were better for wrestling and scoring. There's more action in these matches than in any National or world team match from 2009. We need to open up and wrestle with the new rules...like the russians are doing now!
Mike
I loved how these two greats attacked and were always trying to score points. Some amazing exchanges of points beginning with Dave's gut wrench at the 1:35 mark. Again, he is continually trying to score points from the top position, something rarely, if ever, seen by our world team these days. Also, notice the phenomenal leg defense by Schultz against some textbook single leg attacks by Kemp. Dave Schultz is another one of my favorite American wrestlers of all time and I have never seen this footage against Kemp. This is GREAT stuff, thanks Guru as always!
“The answer is complex but I believe the main reason is that we lack depth at the highest level. We have plenty of high school wrestlers (a good thing for sure) but at the highest level we just don't have the numbers of elite athletes to push each other. The old cliche "steel sharpens steel" is so true. Look at our most successful wrestlers and you will find that they had some serious competition in their weight classes to sharpen their technique on the way to becoming world or olympic champs. Cejudo had to beat Abas (olympic silver medal), Smith had to beat Lewis (olympic gold), Schultz had to beat Kemp (3 time world champ), Monday had to beat Schultz (world and olympic champ). By wrestling great opponents here in the USA they were then ready for international competition. To make matters worse the dominant wrestling countries in the world have even more depth now at the highest level these days with the break up of the USSR. Our best wrestlers either burn themselves out in College or have little financial incentive to continue internationally once they're done. Public backing of the sport is just so poor in the USA that its amazing we've done as well as we have so far.”
“ I have one question folks, what the hell happened to wrestling in this country? ”
“i agree. i hate freestyle way too subjective and leaves too much room for argumentation.
folk style like american style football is philsophically American. They are both sports which allow for greater self determination. steady incremental gain towards a obtainable goals. All within the confines of clearly delineated rules of engagement. the same philosophy by which America has enabled it self to rule the world.
Perhaps it is this philisophical difference which prevents us from dominating the international freestyle scene?!”
Yes, I would agree, and also dropping atomic bombs on Japan, burning Germany to the ground, and amassing the largest arsenal of thermonuclear weapons to date also helps that old philosophical idealogy of ruling the planet too.
“joke. looked like kemp had more points and attacked more. took more shots. ty sport”
folk style like american style football is philsophically American. They are both sports which allow for greater self determination. steady incremental gain towards a obtainable goals. All within the confines of clearly delineated rules of engagement. the same philosophy by which America has enabled it self to rule the world.
Perhaps it is this philisophical difference which prevents us from dominating the international freestyle scene?!
“On going to the knees: Just wanted to say I went straight from this video to Smith v. Jordan, and Smith does most of his scoring off his knees.
But that's John Smith.”
That won't work for the rest of us. For the rest of us staying on your knees is a recipe for losing.
But that's John Smith.
Position, position, position
We'll soon see how good Schlatter is. So far he has been beating (and losing to) other American wrestlers. When he wrestles against the world we'll be able to make a more accurate assessment.
“Great match. Even at this high level this match reinforced one of the fundamental concepts I've learned....that staying on your knees will not allow you to finish a takedown against the best. Each time Kemp shot and failed to come off his knees he was countered effectively by Schultz. Whenever he immediately came off his knees and lifted or came around he was able to finish. This applies at all levels of wrestling but was clearly evident here.”
I've attended the high school Beast of the East tournament for the past 10 years and I still say Dustin Schlatter was the best wrestler to come through that tournament since I've been watching it. I said it when he graduated and he proved me right when he won the NCAA as a freshman. I think he's better than you give him credit for. He was injured for a couple of years and seems be back to top form. Just because you may not have liked his WTT performance doesn't mean the kid can't wrestle. Comparing him to 2 all time greats isn't exactly fair at this point.
“Iowa City was the Final Olympic Qualifier which was used to determine the rankings (ladder) for the Final Trials at Grand Valley State.”
“of couse their better right now. schlatter is still young in international wrestling. these guys are among the best wrestlers in american history. u can't compare them to schlatter right now”
John Smith became a World Champion at roughly the same age as Schlatter. Smith had to win a rugged World Team trial to make the team and then went on to win a World Title. The fact is Dave Schultz and Lee Kemp, although far more experienced than Schlatter on the international scene, were also far better than our current representative and that is not a good sign for us as a nation. I thought the wrestlers today were supposedly far better than those in years past, with all the youth craze going on, starting kids at 3 years old, psychotic parents, high school holdbacks, kids logging thousands of matches before getting to college, technology and knowledge, off season training, and all that other nonsense. The fact is the wrestlers of yester-year by and large were superior than the wrestlers today for some which I do not fully understand although I believe lack of fundamentals and basics are not taight or practiced enough these days. Got off on a tangent but this is what came to mind today watching these phenoms going at it.
“This Video says "1984 Olympic Trials at Grand Valley State." I thought the 1984 Olympic Trials were in Iowa City? Anyone know the specifics of the events at Grand Valley State and Iowa City in 1984? Thanks.”
still have by red and silver best shoe EVER Fret.
Some SWD kid stole my black and silver
“Very good match! Too bad one of those two had to lose.
I'm always a bit suprised Dave Schults was "only" a 2x world/olympic champ, given his incredible technique and his victories at Tblisi. Did he just have bad luck or was there someone a little bit better competinng at the worlds those same years?”
74 kg was probably (and still is) the toughest weight in the world. Understand that until 1987 the Soviets hadn't won a gold in that weight for like 12 years (1975). It was won by Americans, Cubans, Iran, Bulgaria, West Germany, and Japan.
“Two great wrestlers 2 horrible hair do's. Is Kemp wearing signature Schultz shoes here? Schultz should have been hit for passivity 7 min mark Kemp took 4 -5 shots and they got stale matted.
Great Par Terre scrambles early!”
I'm always a bit suprised Dave Schults was "only" a 2x world/olympic champ, given his incredible technique and his victories at Tblisi. Did he just have bad luck or was there someone a little bit better competinng at the worlds those same years?
Great Par Terre scrambles early!
Another gem from the guru! As you stated with Segei Beloglazov, the old rules (70's/80's) were better for wrestling and scoring. There's more action in these matches than in any National or world team match from 2009. We need to open up and wrestle with the new rules...like the russians are doing now!
Mike
Some really great attacks and counters. The difference here was the par terre attacks by Schultz. This is how he won on criteria.
Not sure if this is the first or second match of the series, since I only have one. If I had to guess it's the first.
Enjoy.