Craig Vitagliano said:“How many anonymous cowards we got on this site, anyhow???"
Storppey said "this is the same thing I have been thinking for months. Who are these cowards??"
I'm one of them…
I think that this perspective is a good one. The sport of wrestling wouldn't be wrestling if everything went according to plan, would it? That would make it too easy…
The problem with rooting 10 yr. olds into the basics is that they don't think for themselves when they get caught with a move in a match– they can't improvise if their training mandates that they hit a specific type of basic takedown without options in case of failure. Simple basics need to be reinforced with backup options and practiced with CHAIN WRESTLING, so if one approach fails another one may be called up as a backup. Chain wrestling goes hand-in-hand with scrambling. Teaching scrambling, in effect, teaches wrestlers to fight for positions and work for control, and opens up their minds to new possibilities which they would otherwise have ignored, having been trained to only use a very narrow and fundamental series of moves.
Besides, after scrambling and funking, and working that hard to try to get points when you could simply hit a double-leg or single-leg against most of the lower-level competition, would you be more inclined to learn a simpler method of putting away your opponents then? The wrestlers who learn to scramble first probably appreciate learning the basics more afterwards.
This is why coaches use situational wrestling: to reinforce the basics while giving wrestlers the opportunity to find out what works and what does not if the basics fail.
TJ Hill and Mike Eierman have very similar technique. I went to a couple of clinics Mike had with TJ Hill. The best technique i have ever got for my money. Where is TJ now? Would love to attend another clinic?
depends what you call the 'basics'
position, motion, level change, penetration, lift, arch, and back step seem to cover most positions, but you bring up a good point about the wrist. Where does that fall into? Position? Lift? Maybe we need to refine our teaching to include this concept. It might save us a lot of wasted energy.
It's similar to what USA Wrestling is trying to go to, i.e. teaching core skills common to all wrestling moves instead of teaching one move at a time. I'd like to point out that foreign wrestlers have a sprawl that is fundamentally different from our 'standard' sprawl, that is why they can effectively block a shot when their legs are straight. A lot of our kids who have grown up wrestling can do it instinctively, yet they are pushed to 'do it the right way' in practice. It's almost BJJ in concept, a position is not inherently 'bad' if you can score from it.
I like Mikes perspective on REAL wrestling matches. Heres why...
There are coaches and parents teaching/coaching kids to get in on the legs. These kids are drilling shots and set-ups like crazy. Sure, they may be learning sprawls as well, but they are trained to shoot.
If kids are trained to shoot, it is only realistic to assume that they WILL BEAT A SPRAWL in a REAL match.
What happens to kids who are only trained to sprawl, and their sprawl gets beat? They get scored on. This is where the "option" that Mike is coaching becomes a factor, especially in Folkstyle. Not giving up the takedown using any means possible, and potentially turning your counters into 2-5pts.
Sprawling is great, it is very effective at stopping shots and gaining control of front headlocks and such. I am in no way discrediting the sprawl. But WHAT IF YOUR SPRAWL GETS BEAT? That is being REAL.
I believe that Americans are much too focused on "American Style" wrestling, trying to stick to an ideal that was presented to us by someone...Does anyone really know who?? I watch alot of Europeans wrestle, and if any of these guys were being coached in the U.S. our coaches would try to change everything about them. Their stances are sloppy compared to the "American ideal stance" their backs are bent over and their legs are straight... SO WHAT! They dont attack non-stop like a spaz... SO WHAT! Who is winning Olympic/World Medals? There must be something they are doing right.
Don't misunderstand my thoughts. I believe basics are a necessary and integral part of learning to wrestle. Doubles, Singles, Front Headlocks, Hand Fighting are all basic IDEAS. There are many subtle differences in technique that make these basic moves work for individuals. When I see a "Basic Single Leg" win an overtime match in the finals of the NCAA's I notice all of the advanced subtleties in techniques that made that "Basic Single Leg" work. Others just label it as basic because it was a single leg. It goes much deeper than that.
This is why I am intrigued by Mikes coaching perspective, he allows his athletes to think things out for themselves without being trapped inside the walls of basics. It is in my opinion that kids are much better off learning by losing when they are young. They will figure out what not to do. I give kids alot of credit, they are smarter than many would like to believe.
Scrambling is still a technique, in my mind. It is not just flying around with no control. You are still trying to control the opponents hips and get his/her feet off the mat. Kids still need to learn position and leverage, whether you are talking about a basic freight train double leg tackle or scrambling passing legs and rolling.
i totally agree with this approach to coaching because i can say from experience that its a lot harder to learn to scramble once you already learn the fundamentals, mainly because you are locked into this idea of how things are supposed to happen. then you go out and wrestle and they don't happen that way and you don't know what to do. this guy is awesome i wish that i had learned the things he is teaching at a young age instead of trying to learn them in high school or develop them now in college. great stuff.
MIKE TAMILLOW you bring up some very good points.
so what would you do if you werecoaching youth wrestlers?
what would be your list of skills they would need to have before
they could even compete??
beetle i totally agree with you but if you can always score on your butt or when in a bad postion you dont need a sprawl because you will sprawl then when you incorparate the spawl,front headlocks, go behinds you will always score and if you hit a bad sprawl or he get your leg your confident and you wil score
Mike is an awsome wrestling coach.I was at one time a sceptic and heard all of the lies that people spread about him and his club.I was brought up to not be so foolish as to believe everything you hear.We heard all the junk but I had enough sense to go and check things out for myself. My son and I went one time, and my son said can we join? This was after state and it was in April!! He didn't want to miss a practice and he loves it so much he dropped baseball so he could go all summer.He likes to get there early and I have to drag him out. If Mike has a camp on the weekend he begs to go.He is learning so much and has improved tremendously under Mike's coaching.The technique is AWSOME!!! This will work in Pa. or anywhere else. I wrestled in Pa. guys like John Hughs, ect.I come from a wrestling family. My father wrestled in college against colleges like Bloomsburg,Lockhaven,ect.He was a great wrestler.He is amazed at what these kids can do.When he visits he loves to watch what Mikes teaching and he loves it.The problem is that so many people do not understand his style and technique.They think if they can not undertand it it must be wrong.It is like a mathamatical equation that no one person can grasp in a 2 min explanation.It does not mean that the equation is wrong it means you take the time to learn how to work it out.I watched his kids wrestle and I was impressed with what I saw.I came to the conclusion that this was some good stuff and we need to get in on it.I had to swallow my pride and get out of my comfort zone.It does work if you give it time and learn the system.The people who say it won't work in college ect need to look at Ben and take note.That is like saying to a fifth grader that 2+2 will not = 4 in college, only now in grade school is 2+2=4.Mike doesn't smoke,drink,or chew. He doesn't live off of his daddy's money. He is trying to help kids learn to be good wrestlers and great people.
I actually disagree with a lot of the "basics" philosophy. I also disagree with his talk of scrambling. Clearly he teaches technique. It's just that the basics don't really apply. I've found myself taking very nice head up, hips in, shots in good position against foreigners and not being able to complete the shot because my wrist is caught. It begs me to ask the question: which is more important, having my head up and hips in (aka the basics) or having my wrist free. I might be able to take my opponent down with my head down and butt out if I happen to get a hold of his ankle. Konrad Dudziak does a shot like this. Some wrestlers learn "the basics" and still fall massively short. If you have bad timing on a shot "the basics" don't help much.
I personally think the most important thing is for the wrestlers to get time on the mat, wrestling hard with a coach who can correct their mistakes close at hand. If the coach is good he can help the athletes understand how to correct their own mistakes. (I hear Bobby Douglas is the master of stopping people at any given time and correcting their mistakes)
He may have a philosophy on why he teaches how he does, while the practical reasons for his athletes' success is totally different.
He may be a great coach and know his stuff, but I just don't see a 10 year old picking up on scrambles before he gets the basics. Its like trying to do algebra before you can add, subtract, multiply, and divide
My three boys wrestle for Mike. All are at very different skill levels. Mike talks to his wrestlers about scoring when thing do not go your way. For instance, a single leg in a match usually does not look like the single leg drillled in the practice room. Scrambling fills the gap between the perfect single leg and the single leg earned in a match.
All of my boys drill and know wrestling fundamentals...they get that in the EE wrestling room. They also get the glue that links the fundamentals together...scrambling. Without the fundamentals scrambling would just be flopping around! We are missing out on a huge aspect of wrestling if we think scrambling cannot be taught along with the fundamentals from day one...train exactly like you want to wrestle..scramble early and often!
One thing is personal style. Every wrestler is going to be different. I agree with Craig. there is no sub for basic skills. I think this art of scrambling comes from those that have alot of mat experience. Sprawls are great for teaching hip control. Look at like this go watch any professinal game the warm ups are based on basic fundmanetals. All the great stuff that happens during the game comes from years of hard work and just great DNA.
i like this guys ideas
and scrambling and funk and finding your own technique is great but you need basics first, then go to this other stuff
but give the guy credit hes ositive, confident, and out of the box
hes what we need
look at the russians like saitiev batirov etc. they do some bad things straight legs and stuff like that but are still real good
The best approach for teaching beginners and below and avg athletes is
what USA wrestling suggests. The 7 basic skills of wrestling: Stance, Motion,
Level Change(from an offensive and defensive position), Penetration Step,
Lift/Finish, Back-Step Drill, and Backarch. These 7 skills can enable an avg
kid off the street to participate in the great sport of wrestling.
If you do not teach these 7 skills and just teach moves than only well above avg athletes will be able to get it and perform well.
he has an interesting philosophy but i don't see it working. he's sitting there talking to 10'ish year old kids about philosophy. i'll bet they had blank stares on their faces. kids need to learn the basics. the basics have always been there. we all know there are "trends" in wrestling and "funk" might be the current trend. we also know that a single leg and a high crotch have never been out of style.
ok this for craig i have wrestled international in high school cuz im from guam andi did alot of wrestling in japan and its called freestyle for a reason and yea u shouldnt do all funk but ive alot of matches on funk though against japanesse wrestlers and he showed me just a few things and im telling u its getting to the point were simple basics isnt winning matches and u want use ben askren as an example lets see he only won one match and in it he was losing till used a little funk when he tried all basics against the cuban he lost so say wat you want i truely believe he is teaching the right thing cuz when u get to high school all you learn is basics so hes teaching wat high school coaches arent and thats from mikes mouth so before you disagree with him actually try wrestling international cuz alot easier to say than do plus the russians are another example the stand up right through most of there matches till the last second and hit a move in a awkard positition that sounds like funk to me
hes right about them adding to the technique....you see a lot of the great wrestlers that hit awesome moves have there own kind of spin on a certain move....they just click. They have something figured out in there head.
I really admire Mike's passion behind his philosophy but I'm gonna disagree a bit. I think if kids at an early age don't learn fundamentals they will develop bad habits as they get older and once there the bad habits are difficult to break. I think kids need to develop technique that will work at every level, not just at the High School or College levels. I guess I just think more about International and how we are currently performing which is not too great. From what I'm seeing more and more kids are looking to funk before nailing the basics and getting a simple takedown. It's great here but overseas we are getting killed by wrestlers that have the sound fundamentals. Funk can only take you so far. Ben Askren is only one guy so we shouldn't look to him as the example. Wrestlers in Europe understand head positioning and hand fighting and looking for simple openings to score on their opponents. Like I said I think funk before basics will develop bad habits that a better wrestler will capitalize on.
Furthermore, I believe there is a ton of technique in a sprawl. To overlook this is irresponsible. Getting a good sprawl and hip control takes a lot of time to develop and master. It will also help with counter offense, which is the direction International wrestling is really heading, and to be honest, what separates the really successful wrestlers. I've seen some of the best High School wrestlers in my state that have gotten into trouble and lost matches because they don't know how (i.e. haven't been taught) to sprawl properly, whizzer, drop their weight, drop their laces to the mat, stuff the head, square their hips, etc. Sounds ridiculous but it's true.
Again it's different philosophies. I'm big on basics. I work a lot with my guys on good stance, head position, hand fighting, and defense. Studying the sport so closely the last 25 years that's what I see win matches.
What I really do like that he is teaching a bit of self-reliance in the kids and getting them to figure stuff out on their own. That's really the only way they're going to get better, in wrestling and thereafter. Systems are great and all, but a kid needs to figure out what works specifically for them and I like that Mike is letting them figure this out and providing the guidance.
Mike Eierman has an outside the box approach to teaching the sport of wrestling. He believes that his kids will be successful by learning the art of scrambling and being able to use their minds to help them succeed. April 29, 2009
Eierman- Let them figure it out
Storppey said "this is the same thing I have been thinking for months. Who are these cowards??"
I'm one of them…
I think that this perspective is a good one. The sport of wrestling wouldn't be wrestling if everything went according to plan, would it? That would make it too easy…
The problem with rooting 10 yr. olds into the basics is that they don't think for themselves when they get caught with a move in a match– they can't improvise if their training mandates that they hit a specific type of basic takedown without options in case of failure. Simple basics need to be reinforced with backup options and practiced with CHAIN WRESTLING, so if one approach fails another one may be called up as a backup. Chain wrestling goes hand-in-hand with scrambling. Teaching scrambling, in effect, teaches wrestlers to fight for positions and work for control, and opens up their minds to new possibilities which they would otherwise have ignored, having been trained to only use a very narrow and fundamental series of moves.
Besides, after scrambling and funking, and working that hard to try to get points when you could simply hit a double-leg or single-leg against most of the lower-level competition, would you be more inclined to learn a simpler method of putting away your opponents then? The wrestlers who learn to scramble first probably appreciate learning the basics more afterwards.
This is why coaches use situational wrestling: to reinforce the basics while giving wrestlers the opportunity to find out what works and what does not if the basics fail.
position, motion, level change, penetration, lift, arch, and back step seem to cover most positions, but you bring up a good point about the wrist. Where does that fall into? Position? Lift? Maybe we need to refine our teaching to include this concept. It might save us a lot of wasted energy.
There are coaches and parents teaching/coaching kids to get in on the legs. These kids are drilling shots and set-ups like crazy. Sure, they may be learning sprawls as well, but they are trained to shoot.
If kids are trained to shoot, it is only realistic to assume that they WILL BEAT A SPRAWL in a REAL match.
What happens to kids who are only trained to sprawl, and their sprawl gets beat? They get scored on. This is where the "option" that Mike is coaching becomes a factor, especially in Folkstyle. Not giving up the takedown using any means possible, and potentially turning your counters into 2-5pts.
Sprawling is great, it is very effective at stopping shots and gaining control of front headlocks and such. I am in no way discrediting the sprawl. But WHAT IF YOUR SPRAWL GETS BEAT? That is being REAL.
I believe that Americans are much too focused on "American Style" wrestling, trying to stick to an ideal that was presented to us by someone...Does anyone really know who?? I watch alot of Europeans wrestle, and if any of these guys were being coached in the U.S. our coaches would try to change everything about them. Their stances are sloppy compared to the "American ideal stance" their backs are bent over and their legs are straight... SO WHAT! They dont attack non-stop like a spaz... SO WHAT! Who is winning Olympic/World Medals? There must be something they are doing right.
Don't misunderstand my thoughts. I believe basics are a necessary and integral part of learning to wrestle. Doubles, Singles, Front Headlocks, Hand Fighting are all basic IDEAS. There are many subtle differences in technique that make these basic moves work for individuals. When I see a "Basic Single Leg" win an overtime match in the finals of the NCAA's I notice all of the advanced subtleties in techniques that made that "Basic Single Leg" work. Others just label it as basic because it was a single leg. It goes much deeper than that.
This is why I am intrigued by Mikes coaching perspective, he allows his athletes to think things out for themselves without being trapped inside the walls of basics. It is in my opinion that kids are much better off learning by losing when they are young. They will figure out what not to do. I give kids alot of credit, they are smarter than many would like to believe.
so what would you do if you werecoaching youth wrestlers?
what would be your list of skills they would need to have before
they could even compete??
“How many anonymous cowards we got on this site, anyhow???
”
I personally think the most important thing is for the wrestlers to get time on the mat, wrestling hard with a coach who can correct their mistakes close at hand. If the coach is good he can help the athletes understand how to correct their own mistakes. (I hear Bobby Douglas is the master of stopping people at any given time and correcting their mistakes)
He may have a philosophy on why he teaches how he does, while the practical reasons for his athletes' success is totally different.
“ok this for craig i have wrestled international in high school cuz im from guam ”
All of my boys drill and know wrestling fundamentals...they get that in the EE wrestling room. They also get the glue that links the fundamentals together...scrambling. Without the fundamentals scrambling would just be flopping around! We are missing out on a huge aspect of wrestling if we think scrambling cannot be taught along with the fundamentals from day one...train exactly like you want to wrestle..scramble early and often!
and scrambling and funk and finding your own technique is great but you need basics first, then go to this other stuff
but give the guy credit hes ositive, confident, and out of the box
hes what we need
look at the russians like saitiev batirov etc. they do some bad things straight legs and stuff like that but are still real good
what USA wrestling suggests. The 7 basic skills of wrestling: Stance, Motion,
Level Change(from an offensive and defensive position), Penetration Step,
Lift/Finish, Back-Step Drill, and Backarch. These 7 skills can enable an avg
kid off the street to participate in the great sport of wrestling.
If you do not teach these 7 skills and just teach moves than only well above avg athletes will be able to get it and perform well.
Furthermore, I believe there is a ton of technique in a sprawl. To overlook this is irresponsible. Getting a good sprawl and hip control takes a lot of time to develop and master. It will also help with counter offense, which is the direction International wrestling is really heading, and to be honest, what separates the really successful wrestlers. I've seen some of the best High School wrestlers in my state that have gotten into trouble and lost matches because they don't know how (i.e. haven't been taught) to sprawl properly, whizzer, drop their weight, drop their laces to the mat, stuff the head, square their hips, etc. Sounds ridiculous but it's true.
Again it's different philosophies. I'm big on basics. I work a lot with my guys on good stance, head position, hand fighting, and defense. Studying the sport so closely the last 25 years that's what I see win matches.
What I really do like that he is teaching a bit of self-reliance in the kids and getting them to figure stuff out on their own. That's really the only way they're going to get better, in wrestling and thereafter. Systems are great and all, but a kid needs to figure out what works specifically for them and I like that Mike is letting them figure this out and providing the guidance.
May the force be with you my young padiwan