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National Duals Debate 10055 views

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Uploaded by Cliff Fretwell | September 11, 2012

Speakers: Mark Branch, Tom Brands, Cael Sanderson, Brian Smith, John Stutzman, Rob Koll, Cliff Fretwell, Lee Roper

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38 comments

Anonymous Coward 4 months ago

I Think it is Oklahoma A&M

Lucas Desilva 5 months ago

Okalhoma A&M

Anonymous Coward 7 months ago

I'll give an example. I competed through high school at a high level in north carolina and have since became a coach. Whenever my Mom or sister would come see me compete or coach, they would rather go to a dual tournament instead of a individual one. You get to see your team wrestle and not have to wait forever between matches. This is a situation where a lower tier team can win a national title as well. Virginia Tech was in the finals of national dual a couple years ago, beating Okie State along the way. There will probably never be a situation they will outpoint Okie State for an individual title. Those tough dual teams can make a run at this. I like the Edinboro example too. They can match up with a top team, but won't ever outpoint them in an Individual tournament setting.

lewish 8 months ago

hey,personally there is zero chance I can make a present ncaa championship unless it ends up in the northwest, but if periodically a regional was at boise or oregon state I could maybe swing that with my kids...it seems like it could be worked to move around the venues better?...I like seeing if a guys can wrestle and keep the score to a 3 point team score...that can be an epic undertaking at times if you ask me...which is what I think you are doing.

Footestomper - PSU fan 8 months ago

Why is the tournament more exciting than a dual? Because in a dual there are many times when a wrestlers sole job for his team is to lose by a 3-pt decision. The goal isn't to WIN, but just not to lose too badly. These matches are sleepers. This happens quite often. Part of the problem is as stated, and part of the problem is that a lot of refs will call their first stalling warning with about 20 seconds left in the 3rd period. Why is the tournament more exciting - because EVERYONE is wrestling to WIN. It's time to seize the opportunity to actually see if you can really beat that higher ranked wrestler. Time to lay it all on the line. Win or go home.

Cliff Fretwell 8 months ago via Flosports for iOS

rumor is the NCAA tabled it.

Basler106 8 months ago

As a fan I'm excited to see a national dual either in person or on tv. It could be like basketball where you fill out brackets I can see myself getting into that.

Randy Barz 8 months ago

i,m so happy they shot it down.. everyone has lots of time ta think and debate about this hurry up an vote crap.. BRING ON THE GRAPPLIN!!!!!

The Roosevelts 8 months ago

We have what, like 50 states worth of proof that dual championships don't draw anything compared to the end of year state individual tournament. And forgive me if I am missing something did they not proclaim the national duals winner a "national champion"? what changes besides 86ing the team title from the greatest wrestling event in the world the REAL NCAA championships. as for the argument that it will help school stay alive well maybe but that is such a stop gap. The thing that will turn D-1 wrestling around is if Title 9 gets reformed in a way that still fosters women's athletics but doesn't allow the money programs of football and basketball to suck up ALL of the mens athletics money and resources.

jamie b 8 months ago

National Duals example... Cornell vs. Penn St. Kyle Dake bumps up to wrestle D. Taylor....

I like the chance to watch wrestlers bump around and find out which coaches that will move there line up to get the best dual team.

Anonymous Coward 8 months ago

Have the national duals at a fan/family friendly venue, location and time period (holiday).

Big Ted 8 months ago

Thanks Cliff. If there is free cotton candy being handed out for DT's majors, I would consider national duals. Unfortunately I think it creates a bigger headache than it actually solves. We would have to do a semester system in order to make two tourney's work, and realistically its just not feasible. Hate to be a downer, but if this change goes through, we're looking at two mediocre tourney's. Bartledoo

8 months ago via Flosports for iOS

Flowrestling, that was honestly a horrible debate. I love to watch the new videos almost daily, but that just stunk. Bader and Williams are just better to listen to....

8 months ago via Flosports for iOS

Flowrestling, that was honestly a horrible debate. I love to watch the new videos almost daily, but that just stunk. Bader and Williams are just better to listen to....

8 months ago via Flosports for iOS

Flowrestling, that was honestly a horrible debate. I love to watch the new videos almost daily, but that just stunk. Bader and Williams are just better to listen to....

Cliff Fretwell 8 months ago

I like the thoughts Ted. I think we can all agree change needs to be made? What those changes are is up to the people that control things like NWCA ect. all we can do is hope they play out those perfect scenarios we all think will be the best for the sport, 2 national titles, semester system, regions instead of conferences, free cotton candy for every major decision DT gets next year. Everyone has a personal view opinion and or experience that sways them to want a certain play out. I like the passion in this debate good arguments for both sides!

Ugh 8 months ago

Mixed feelings here. The ONLY benefit i can really c here is a 1 event money maker. I dont believe this will bring wrestling " back " or thust it into the mainstream. Wrestling has never been, nor
will it ever be mainstream. This format will make the NCAA tourny much more of a bore. I mean, what motivation does a kid hav to score more than a 3-4 point lead (and sit on that lead to conserve energy )and save himself for the big time matches? It will def take away from the integrity of the tourny, that point cant really be argued. It may better for funding, but i dont believe its better for the NCAA championships, which lets face it, IS what college wrestling is all about...it is the and has always been end game all wrestlers strive for.... Not fcking national duals

calot 8 months ago

In the future just dont see the NCAA willing to spend the $ to have 33 man brackets at the Individual Tourney thats 330 wrestlers and coaches to have to pay for.With the national duals you have 16 teams to pay for just dont see NCAA willing to spend the money for 2 big wrestling tourneys.I just see the Individual Tourney going back to being wrestled on a college campus with 16 man brackets in 10 years

Anonymous Coward 8 months ago

Big Ted, You are an idiot.

Big Ted 8 months ago

Cliff, this definitely does not need to happen. I keep hearing the rationale that "dual meets need to be more significant, and creating an NCAA dual championship will build excitement on campuses because duals will matter more". Give me a break, the only duals which will actually have any significance will be on the campuses of teams that will be in the hunt for the dual title: Cornell, Iowa, PSU, Ohio State, Minnesota. These teams don't need any help putting people in the stands. The teams that are in danger of losing there programs like: Utah Valley, Princeton, Clarion, won't get exciting crowds because of the dual format because they'll never compete for the dual tourney. National duals takes away a home dual which is a huge money maker for the big teams, and for the little teams if the Big Boys are in town. Last year PSU boycotted national duals and wrestled Utah Valley in Utah. They packed the house and got TV exposure for a program that needed help. The national duals takes away exposure from the teams that need it most.

You also steal the integrity of NCAA tourney as it has been operated for years. Kids like Andrew Long and Mike Grey who had to wrestle back in the conci's two years ago to get valuable points for their teams will be less motivated. As soon as the get All American status, they can stop. (let's be honest, if you don't win, your an All American, noone cares which place that was). I can't believe people don't realize this. That's the beauty of the current format, you have individual battles within larger team battles. Your stealing away a huge piece of that by taking away the NCAA team title. There's so much going on in our current format with the team race, now the tournament will be one dimensional. Less people will stay around for wrestle backs and placer rounds.
There may also be a possibility that ESPNU will stop covering the medal rounds like they have in previous years. Usually that is when the team race is decided, but since that is losing significance, stands will be empty during this part of the tourney, and you may just not get the matside interviews with Quint Kessenich that we are all used to. The tournament has grown tremendously in recent years and more rounds are covered on ESPN now than ever before. I would never even think of changing this. You don't need to make this change in order to get extra ESPN exposure, as you may actually be losing ESPN exposure because of a lack of importance in certain rounds. Last year ESPN covered the Oklahoma State vs Iowa dual, without any NCAA Championship inclinations. An Iowa dual record was on the line, and it made for good TV, so if we can create these story lines, we can sell TV time to ESPN for sure.
Also, programs being dropped has nothing to do with what we are doing. As Rob Koll said, "ten years ago, we had 3 teams with an average fan base of 4000 or more and 10 other teams with 1000 or more. Ten years later it is relatively unchanged". So we're not losing fans, and nothing indicates that we are vulnerable of losing more fans. We are vulnerable of losing more D1 programs and the problem is Title IX, not the product on the mat. Change everything you want to with how NCAA titles are determined, but programs will continue to be dropped until you get rid of Title IX. If the NWCA wants to save programs and build wrestling, they should be lobbying Washington. Their arguments for this proposal are rediculous. "you can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome." Yea that's obvious, but obviously misguided. The NWCA is most guilty of this, they keep trying to push the national duals, and its never worked, so let's give up on the idea of it being a great event, and start attacking Title IX.

Jason Roush 8 months ago

Big Ted is an idiot.

PA all the way is also an idiot. What do you mean they are gonna move kids around and not have them wrestle their "real" weight classes. The only thing they can do is move up 1 weight class. Even if they move up one weight class they must still make their normal weight class otherwise they lose certification. At least thats how it was a few years back, I'm not sure if they have changed the rules or not (I don't think so). Either way, that is what makes a dual fun and exciting. Coaches strategizing to find a way to win, you know, like what happens in every other team sport. Don't be mistaken, wrestling IS a team sport.
I love the NCAA individual tournament, but common fans don't want to spend 12 hours a day in an arena trying to follow 10 different mats. I love it, but we need to do more to change the direction of our sport. There are only 70 some schools with DI wrestling programs. If we don't do something wrestling will continue to drown.
If you have a better idea of what can improve the sport, improve the fan viewership, and increase popularity among the general public I'm sure everyone would love to hear it.

Anonymous Coward 8 months ago

If they want the National Duals to be successful and have sold out arenas, they need to hold it in a few places which will give one team a huge home court advantage. If they hold it in Iowa City, Ames, Cedar Falls, or Des Moines then Iowa wrestling fans will give you a sell-out. If they hold it in Minneapolis, Gopher and Hawkeye fans will sell it out. They could also hold it at State College and Penn State fans will show up.

Josh Stephen 8 months ago

Big Ted- go fall on a sharp object please.

Austin Torres 8 months ago

Coming from a person who got his ENTIRE dorm into Boise State's wrestling program. They say that duals are the only thing they enjoyed. We had the Pac-10 tourny here last year and we all went and they said that it was much more boring and wayy too long as compared to duals, that the team race was HUGE in every match and it was relatively short. Duals is the way to go, for new fans and money. its not about our pride as wresters its about swallowing our pride and making our sport a sport to not go extinct! WAKE UP!

Cliff Fretwell 8 months ago

I'm pretty sure its not a conspiracy against PSU. Are they going about it wrong ABSOLUTELY. Does it need to happen yes.

Randy Barz 8 months ago

the wrestling community is not made of money!!!!

Randy Barz 8 months ago

do fans take 2 wrestlin vacations a year? myself not enough money... i,m not goin to the duels! thats a fact.....

Randy Barz 8 months ago

people work monday thru friday... right... skip duals and go ta tourneys on sat... more fans go to tournements!!!! always will

Randy Barz 8 months ago

i say talk about it for one more year!!!!!!!!

PA all the way 8 months ago

"We're doing it"... because everyone knows that Penn State won't be touched in the tournament style set up for the next 10 years... this national duals garbage means that you can move wrestlers around and not have these kids wrestle their real weight classes to gain an advantage.. Its ashame to punish a team for being so dominant... NCAA............................YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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