Wrestling Blogs - Mike Tamillow

Great Forrest Gump quote!!! I like it

Forrest Gump said, " I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze..." In the end he concluded it was a little bit of both.

We're giving opportunities and have to do the best we can with them.

Doc, I do not know Tom Brands or Tom Ryan personally. I am simply looking at what Ryan said in the interview. A lot of people work hard. Ryan even said he worked as hard as Brands. He was trying to explain what made the great ones different. Watch the video. http://www.flowrestling.org/videos/speaker/176-tom-ryan/1098-monopoly-wars

Ben,
Would you have been an NCAA champ or Max an All-American if you hadn't been killing each other in your basement for all those years? You have loving, supportive parents and environment that nurtured your natural abilities. If you went to a different HS, you may have been scolded for your rolling around type of wrestling. There were alot of things in your favor that helped you become great. What if you didn't start wrestling until 9th grade and you were from a single parent house where that parent worked all the time to make ends meet and couldn't take you to tournaments? There are a lot of things beyond our control that take us to where we are.

I think people are replacing the word "convenient" with "easy". I could be mistaken but I never read the word easy in Mike's post. I think he's trying to portray a receipt for success, hence the way he began the article. So it really got me thinking. I repsonded, initially, the way many of you did. What about Gable, Blubaugh, Smith, ect? Are they great because it was convenient? I seriously doubt that. When we mention these wrestlers we're talking about the top .000001% of all wrestlers. Those few that we're constantly discussing in this thread require the other ingredient in the receipt for success...hard work! There must be another trait in there to capitolize on that convience, if not it's wasted.

It was a great article though but I think EVERYONE will agree there is isn't just ONE thing what will lead to a successful wrestling career. Some factors will be larger than others and I don't think anyone can disagree that with the way Tamillow discribes convenience it would be found very high up the list, if not the top. So how do I give my son the best chance to be a successful wrestler? Make his training environment convenient and somehow have him out work everyone in the country.

Ben, we think alike! Believe me I never thought I would say that.

I respectfully and totally disagree. Go through lists of NCAA champions and Olympic champions they come from very diverse backgrounds, some were convenience but most werent. If it was all convenience we would have 8 NCAA champs from blair every year and the other two from somewhere in PA. I like the effort though.

Ted, I'm sure Brands would love to hear that his success was a result of having "it," maturity, and a little luck. In fact, Brands was not exactly what most people would think of when it comes to maturity and I'm sure Coach Ryan would agree with that. His HS career was tainted with problems, he was a poor sport as a wrestler and he was nowhere near the level of greatness leaving HS as he eventually became in college and post college. His success came from 2 things: he completely bought into what Gable was selling and he worked his butt off to become the great wrestler he became. That is just not a result of "convenience." To the contrary, that kind of work physically and mentally is completely inconvenient.

In one of tom Ryan's interviews on flo, he talked about what made certain individuals great. He said McIlravy, Brands, etc. had a great maturity and understanding of what they needed to do at a young age to be successful. I totally agree with this. Some people just have "IT", surround themselves with a positive environment, have a little luck, and put all the pieces together at the right time.

I appreciate Mike's comments but cannot let slide some of the youthful and honest naiveté. For starters, the implication that Malcolm Gladwell dances around an issue can only come from an incomplete understanding of the topic being discussed.

Next, Mike's explanation of what he calls "convenience" more accurately depicts the concept of "chance" or "coincidence" and I think he has missed seeing many of the beautiful trees as a result of the forest. I would argue that what Mike feels were "convenient" circumstances or even happenstances were not that at all rather, the best he could make of things. For example, I am not sure which of his coaches he was talking about and without any disrespect to any of the fine coaches he has learned from and trained with but none of them make my top ten in the country list.
I also, don't believe kids do drugs because of convenience. Personally, every party I ever attended in H.S. and college was complete with an assortment of fine drugs and methods of self-defilement their convenience was at a premium. I felt it was better to avoid them. As for school being a waste of time I don't think mike is being intellectually honest. The mere fact that he mentioned the name of his university instead of using the word "college" tells you that he valued his association with that fine institution and did NOT find it a waste of time. His posting has generated much discussion and had he not been educated in a school his comments and the thought behind them would have never engendered any of the respect or responses or respect. The fact that he attended Northwestern and did not work hard makes me wonder what he could have accomplished with more effort (as inconvenient as it may have been). I mean no disrespect to Mike because he was a great wrestler but perhaps he would have won a few national titles, freestyle national championships, etc. if he had stepped outside his zone of convenience. Maybe he would have been writing this as a column for the New York Times or we may have been reading it the NYT Best Selling book Mike Tamillow's CONVENIENT way to get to the top.
Finally, moving from Europe to America was anything but convenient! Frightening - yes, uncertain - yes, expensive - yes, dangerous - yes, but convenient - absolutely not! Convenient was staying put and playing the cards that were dealt even if it meant living in abject poverty. Mike was blessed to be a talented kid with the right people around him to influence him to make good decisions and worked hard enough to do well but there were far more convenient ways for him to live his life than choosing wrestling and Northwestern University. My final comment to Mike is that when you are young, it seems like money makes life easier (and I am not denigrating the impact money can have on your life) but having had none and having had some, life itself is far more convenient and far less complicated without money.
I do agree firmly with Mike that the father who wanted the olympic champions should definitely not beat his kids (even if they should one day get tech falled).

I love everything about this, thanks Mike! You are wise beyond your years!

I can not imagine this discussion on any other sports forum. Truly outstanding.

I will need to absorb some of this as I have been noodling on some other topics.
One topic is motivation or desire. Can it be manufactured? In other words what can a coach or leader (parent) do to create passion and desire in the people around them and especially their children. As a parent of 4 children I have 1 that is extremely driven (3rd Girl), one some what driven (2nd girl), one driven when driven (oldest boy), and one that is still out there (youngest girl). Ages 12-11-9-8.
I am looking for books or information on how to help bring this out in them.

Sucess is going the best with what you have.
Mike was never an NCAA champ so obviously his parents should have moved... Or he should have gone to OKie State

I posted on this earlier.I am blown away by the insight of all of the people who have responded. I think Authors like Gladwell (and Tamillow) are inspiring us all to think about what was at one time unthinkable. We are only scraping the surface. I have always thought that wrestlers are peopl who are special because our sport offers us more truth than other sports. Wrestling puts you out there and pushes you in a way traditional team sports don't even begin to understand. I've played and coached many sports and wrestling (and now mma) are the only real deal offered in scholastic sports. The Flonationals concept offers the same pilosophy. Here is the tournament. If you want to say your the best, enter and see what you got.
One more point. I have to disagree (respectfully) with Martin in that rugged individualism and the American spirit will only take you so far. There are always examples of people who succeed in spite of tragic circumstances, but these people are the exception and not the rule. I was a welfare kid and got out, but I had some big luck (or convenient events) along the way.

Consider failure: Failure is easy. If you want to fail, all you have to do is decide you are going to fail. It doesn't take anything to fail. I can walk on to the wrestling mat and say "I'm not going to win this match" and I will be right 100% of the time. Keep that in mind, because success can't and won't happen unless you choose it. This isn't easily measured as "success" but merely lack of failure. Maybe that's what I have going for me.
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Almost everybody has a breaking point. It isn't always physical and it is determined by a lot of different things. The most important is your attitude, heart, guts, spirit or whatever else you want to call it. It's also influenced by other people's attitudes and the difficulties associated with a task. You may be saying "I'm going to win" but when times get hard, sooner or later you may not even realize the thought slip in "it's not going to happen". And then you've broke. You've accepted defeat and it's not going to happen. Maybe it's a match, but maybe it's the whole sport. Sometimes this is a good thought, it'll save a lot of people a lot of time because not everyone can succeed.
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But what about the person that doesn't break. The person who believes he is invincible. Well, he is going to do everything in his power to succeed. However, reality tells us that everyone dies. Sometimes, it doesn't matter what you think about yourself. Things happen. You may fail, without for a second believing you are going to. So we can't look into success and determine it is caused by only the things that cause failure. Something based in reality and not simply within ourselves causes success.
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Your story; I think that was about me. That kid is conveniently friends with someone who wrestle. There is your first convenience. Now he begs his parents to get better training partners. I begged my parents to let me go to one of the best kids clubs in the nation: Fox Valley wrestling club. But unfortunately the drive was about 45 minutes away. It was too inconvenient for them so I couldn't go. They didn't look at wrestling as something hugely important. In their minds, school was more important. Another inconvenience. A train ride sounds familiar too, as the program I attended throughout grade school was cut in sixth grade. So I took a train ride, to a bus ride, and a mile walk every day in eighth grade to get to the high school's practice that I'd be attending the next year. But what if there wasn't public transportation in my part of the country? What if I lived on a farm and my parents said "tough luck". I also got lucky there was a freestyle program with Ed Giese that was close to home for me. I only had to convince my parents to drive me 10 minutes to get rid of me for two hours. I would like to know the qualifications of the coach in your scenario. Apparently your coach has wrestled for a division one school by the fact that he can call up his old college coach to recruit his guy. That's a good coach for a high schooler to have. I had Mike Powell right down the street from me. An All-American for the university of Indiana and right around my weight class. If I would have went to OPRF, I would've had a huge advantage wrestling him every day. But my mom wouldn't let me go to a public school. Even still, he held off season practices I was able to go to. I went to Fenwick and I had a solid team, some good workout partners, and a very intense room. These were all conveniences, but as I showed you, a few additional advantages would've pushed me over the edge. But my parents didn't know wrestling, they were trying to be supportive but stubborn to make any major compromises for it. Nor were they able to guide me towards the best coaches, I got lucky in this way. As much as I did, I got damn lucky. That kid had conveniences that 99% of kids don't have. He had understanding parents (how many parents won't even let their kids wrestle, much less drive them that far every day for what they consider a useless endeavor) He had a great coach, a coach who knows wrestling and has been around it for a while.(I never even heard about fargo until my junior year of high school) But more than anything he had a coach who took him by the hand, somebody to remind him not to give up when times are tough. I can only imagine this kid also had a great situation at whatever college he went to. I would obviously be lying if I said I didn't have conveniences at the college I went to. Your kid might be the worst example you could have provided. That is the luckiest kid alive and I can only imagine how many others wish they had his opportunities.
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The breaking point of most people is effected by their realities. Some people are favored with the mental abilities to never give up. These are the people who could become navy seals and just shrug when asked about their training. But even these people, I would say, have been conveniently pushed to their breaking points over and over again, until their breaking point no longer exists. These people are few and far between, and for good reason. It makes sense to quit and take a different route sometimes, there is a strategic advantage to it if there is more than one way to win. A little winning will make us less inclined to quit. It will lead us to further pursue success. The more we win the less likely we are going to hit that breaking point. The factor that makes that difference, that sets us on the course for success and keeps us on it is convenience.

Great dialog! Have any of you grown up without convenience, pushed yourself through it with ruggad individualism to reach for your goals, become successful to some extent, and then in a sick kind of way missed how hard you used to have to work for everything?

Cutting weight was never convenient but it sure made me appreciate food and water more than the average person...and when I grew up without much money, I seemed to appreciate the little things a lot more as well.

Now that I'm raising my 3 young children I find myself searching for the right balance of providing convenience to enable success and withholding convenience in an attempt to instill the value of hard work and the satisfaction of knowing that you've earned something rather than just received it...looking back I'm glad that I had to earn it as I believe that has been one of the primary enablers of my career success.

Granted I was never an NCAA All-American either so perhaps a little more convenience would have done me some good?

If you look at Asian or European cultures America has always placed more emphasis on the individual. Individuals are allowed to be different and allowed to stand out more. Thus Mike Tamillow's existence. Individuals, some of them, arent constrained compared to other cultures. This is America's biggest strength and could be a weakness in a smaller and less significant way. Ruggad individualism is a VERY big part of who we are as a country. We encourage it and we reward it as a culture more so than any other culture.
This individualism comes in many different ways and produces many different ideas. Mike, in his post gives a personal example where his wrestling skills is a product mostly of convenience. Well I would argue that for every story where someone fell into convenience there is a story where someone EARNED convenience. What about the kid who tags along to a wrestling class with his friend one day and finds out that he cant get enough of it. He begs his parents and does everything he can to get to better classes and even will take the train to find better training partners. He will even forgo hanging out with his friends after school to make the trip. At this new practice arena a coach notices his passion and takes him under his wing. The kid is like a sponge and will do anything to get more time. So the coach in turn gives him more attention. The kid sick of the long trip decides to spend the summer training with the coach. The coach sees the passion and knows the kid has what it takes to make it to the next level. The HS coach calls his old college coach and says "you better take a look at this kid." From there the kid goes on to win NCAAs his senior year in College.
Did the kid have convenience or did he make convenience? I would simply say "the kid made it happen". The fact is these stories happen. So no story is alike. Sometimes convenience is made and sometimes it is given. Either way Ruggad Individualism often is a reason why convenience is made.

I think Mike is right. Think of all the kids in our country that could be great at wrestling, but have things that are beyond their control working against them. You have a huge advantage if you just happen to live within the town limits of a National Caliber HS. If your from pwerehoese areas of PA, Ohio, Jersey, or Iowa you start out much closer to the DIV I podium than if you are from another place. There is talent everywhere, but depth is what pushes people to the top. Kids who have dads that wrestled at a higher level have a potential advantage over other kids because they have a coach from birth. There are huge voids in our country where wrestling could thrive. Many inner city kids never wrestle simply because their crowded HS has nowhere to put a mat. There are many things beyond your control as a young person that shape who you are. Some of these things are good and some are bad. Do the best with the hand you are dealt.

Interesting post. Worthy discussion.

Interesting post. Worthy discussion.

Mike I totally agree with you. I try to explain this to kids all the time, to make them understand that your initial situation may not have been great (or convinient as you put it), but your situation can change and along with that, your success. For the majority, successful people come from families with people that care about them, and what they are doing, ALL the time. They generally have better coaching or teaching. Not everyone has these advantages. Sometimes the stars don't align at the right time. You don't always have the most condusive environment for success growing up.

That being said, I also believe that as you get older you can start to change those things and work hard to "align the stars" of success. I myself didn't have the best environment coming through high school, and from that my success suffered. But as I have gotten older, I have learned to push myself and make my own successful environment by surronding myself with people with similar goals.

sounds like your just making excuses for lazy kids

kinda makes you realize

Martin, I agree with all of your points to an extent. I oversimplified because it's the nature of science. Science doesn't explain everything but it helps pick out the factors that most influence us. So convenience is the most influential.

You mention the 10,000 hours and that is where I would say convenience is so much more important than rugged individualism. Imagine if I have an hour and a half car ride each way to practice. On top of that, practice is an hour and a half. And then I have an hour and a half car ride back. That was just four and a half hours I have spent that only equate to an hour and a half in my training. It is inconvenient and I am wasting time that someone who lived two minutes away from the practice site could have spent with his coach.
I really believe the extent of free will is very very slim. And it takes someone who is intelligent and courageous to see when an action is free will and when it is just something we tell ourselves for psychological benefit. There is a huge benefit to actually realizing when something you are doing is free will. But for a little kid, very little of what they do is a conscious choice, and by making certain things convenient you can establish habits in them that will effect the course of their lives without them ever realizing it.
I would never say money is the final destination. But if you don't have money you can't afford a car. If you can't afford a car, then it's going to be nearly impossible to get to a practice 20 miles away. The practice still has to be 20 miles and not 2000 miles and you still need to determine you are going to do it. But consider having to make a choice, you have to drive 20 miles or you have to drive 200 miles to practice. I think you would have an easier time choosing 20.
The old "I had to walk 10 miles in the snow and 10 miles back just to get to school" is supposed to show the spirit of rugged individualism. These people would inconvenience themselves just to get to class. It's a story of pride. But did they get any smarter when they got to class? No, chances are they just wasted time walking 10 miles each way. Imagine if they had been studying with that time. You may say that the student who would wake up and study during that time is what makes it rugged individualism. If that kids parents woke up in the morning and took him to extra classes that much earlier, it would be a lot more convenient for him to just learn. If that students parents let him stay in and sleep, he gained nothing over the person who had to walk ten miles. Instead he got 10 miles lazier. He never learned the lesson of those rugged individuals, that if you have to inconvenience yourself to make your life just a little better off, it is something you are going to have to do, no matter the cost.
So yes, there is a fine balance. You have to learn the lesson of inconveniencing yourself, to go out on a limb to accomplish even the littlest thing. But ultimately convenience is going to bring success, so you want to move things closer to yourself, making it more efficient to repeatedly work on them.
Just joking about parents beating their kids. Sorry, I have a sick sense of humor.

You absolutely have to convenience yourself. To be great we often have to be surrounded by greatness. But that is only one part of the equation and the other part isncludes rugged Individualism and hard work. So I fundamentally disagree that the American Dream isnt based off of rugged Individualism and hard work.

A couple of points:
In the "Outliers" book it talks about how there are no born geniuses. You have to work at what you do for 10,000 hours before you can become truly great. Find me someone who has worked 10,000 hours at something by the time he is 20 - 25 or even 30 years old. Its not easy to do. If you have worked 10,000 hours at such an early age you have sacraficed a lot...which brings human free will into the equation....and often times this equates to Ruggad Individualism.
You tend to way oversimplify: "The first person to smile at us is the person we befriend. If that friend does drugs, we’ll do drugs. If that person is intelligent, we’ll learn." Last time I checked we didnt become robots and we still have free will. People make difficult choices everyday not to stay friends with people because they dont fit inside their vision. Dont overlook that fact.
A lot of people are born in less than ideal circumstances but find ways to navigate through it. Are the percentages as high? Of course not. But dont take human free will out of the equation because it is the most amazing thing we have!!!
You also say: "It is much easier to succeed at whatever you want when you have money." I may agree in some scenarios and may disagree in others. Money doesnt solve problems, people do. Sometimes money actually causes more problems! Sometimes without money people find solutions they would never have had gotten if they were just written a check. They say: The mother of invention is necessity. You have a problem and you cant buy out of it, so you find another solution and this solution is way better than if you would have tried to buy an "off the shelf" solution. I see it everyday at Flocasts. Its just another point of view. That doesnt mean we dont need money...its just money isnt going to determine someone's success, its a person who makes choices that determines success.
PS I agree it is ridiculous to trying to be training your kids to be Olympic Champions at 3-5 years old but I wouldnt jump to the conclusion that that parent is going to beat their kids. It sounds like that father was just trying to convenience his kids the best he could to set them up for success in wrestling. Its ridiculous because it puts the cart before the horse. The kids are going to first have to choose if they like wrestling....that may take some ruggad indvidualism on their part.

this is good stuff